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dam_jackalopes 33 minutes ago [-]
We'd visit Ft. Ross as a kid. Not much to look at from the pictures, but it certainly didn't feel that way in person when I was young. It was my first time seeing actual bayonets and it left quite an impression. Beautiful area as well.
janandonly 5 hours ago [-]
I didn’t know about this at all.
What would America look like if Russia had send more of its people overseas to California?
naishoya 4 hours ago [-]
Probably not much different than it does now.
There was already a durable population of Hispanic and indigenous communities, a marked increase in Russian expatriates under Tsarist era Russian-American company would have had a very hard time gaining any numbers.
As it was, "a combination of heavy coastal fog and rampant rodents yielded just 13 tonnes of wheat annually between 1826 and 1833" so sending more people would simply have increased the risk of them all starving.
The effort of expansion into California was primarily to try and rescue the fur traders in Russian held Alaska, and just about the only reason those efforts had any success was through illicit trade with the Spanish, who at the time claimed California as well.
Small scale made each group mutually supportive, but a drastic increase in numbers from Russia would have changed that balance and the Spanish were more than capable of simply denying the Russians any support, which would have doomed the majority of any such increase.
They also didn't send them because they were not really capable of sailing a significant number of people from populous regions of Russia, the very long nautical distance and losses from a long voyage balances the massive losses for overland travel to the pacific coast and then still needing a long naval voyage. Sure it is not that far to Alaska, but there is a reason they make 'Scary Fishing' shows about modern boats in those waters, and safer, more southerly routes are against prevailing winds across the wide Pacific.
So, they might have tried to send more, but the three to five months on foot or by horse from St Petersburg to Yakutsk, and then another thousand miles to Okhotsk which is frozen for half of the year, then sail to Sitka where there is already no food, and on to California with a ghost ship, maybe delivering 4 people for every 500 you start with, having taken close to Two Full Years. The Russian-American company was already losing 10k horses a year on that route for the minimal trade that did exist.
So, 'if Russia had tried' would probably have cost the Empire half or more of it's entire horse supply and not meaningfully changed the population at Ft Ross, maybe from less than two hundred persons max, to less than a five hundred persons in pretty miserable shape.
OgsyedIE 4 hours ago [-]
Was there no outgroup in Russia at the time that would have leapt at the chance to emigrate if the Tsar proclaimed religious and/or cultural freedom in California for any émigrés who self-deported there?
mepian 54 minutes ago [-]
Starovery (Old Believers) maybe?
OgsyedIE 4 hours ago [-]
Depends on whether the Russians in this alternate timeline discovered gold any sooner or at the same time as our history did, since the discovery promoted huge numbers of USA-originating immigration that drowned out the other cultures in the area. The later it gets put off, the more time the Russian colony has to strengthen.
RussianBot9580 2 hours ago [-]
The timeline is very close, and this area was heavily contested, with Mexico, Russia, and the US vying for the area. After all, Fort Ross is right next to Sutter's Mill - exactly where gold was discovered.
So, in 1841 Sutter bought Fort Ross - and failed to pay until 1849, a year after the USA officially took California from Mexico. And by incredible coincidence - a year after gold was discovered at Sutter's Mill. The existence of gold was likely already known for some time. It's simply too perfect.
Also, the Americans used their favorite weapon against the colony - sanctions! Prior to Sutter's arrival, Fort Ross could trade with Mexicans and the local Indians. Sutter forbade this - America would not trade with anyone involved with Fort Ross. The more things change the more they stay the same :)
What would America look like if Russia had send more of its people overseas to California?
There was already a durable population of Hispanic and indigenous communities, a marked increase in Russian expatriates under Tsarist era Russian-American company would have had a very hard time gaining any numbers. As it was, "a combination of heavy coastal fog and rampant rodents yielded just 13 tonnes of wheat annually between 1826 and 1833" so sending more people would simply have increased the risk of them all starving.
The effort of expansion into California was primarily to try and rescue the fur traders in Russian held Alaska, and just about the only reason those efforts had any success was through illicit trade with the Spanish, who at the time claimed California as well.
Small scale made each group mutually supportive, but a drastic increase in numbers from Russia would have changed that balance and the Spanish were more than capable of simply denying the Russians any support, which would have doomed the majority of any such increase.
They also didn't send them because they were not really capable of sailing a significant number of people from populous regions of Russia, the very long nautical distance and losses from a long voyage balances the massive losses for overland travel to the pacific coast and then still needing a long naval voyage. Sure it is not that far to Alaska, but there is a reason they make 'Scary Fishing' shows about modern boats in those waters, and safer, more southerly routes are against prevailing winds across the wide Pacific.
So, they might have tried to send more, but the three to five months on foot or by horse from St Petersburg to Yakutsk, and then another thousand miles to Okhotsk which is frozen for half of the year, then sail to Sitka where there is already no food, and on to California with a ghost ship, maybe delivering 4 people for every 500 you start with, having taken close to Two Full Years. The Russian-American company was already losing 10k horses a year on that route for the minimal trade that did exist.
So, 'if Russia had tried' would probably have cost the Empire half or more of it's entire horse supply and not meaningfully changed the population at Ft Ross, maybe from less than two hundred persons max, to less than a five hundred persons in pretty miserable shape.
So, in 1841 Sutter bought Fort Ross - and failed to pay until 1849, a year after the USA officially took California from Mexico. And by incredible coincidence - a year after gold was discovered at Sutter's Mill. The existence of gold was likely already known for some time. It's simply too perfect.
Also, the Americans used their favorite weapon against the colony - sanctions! Prior to Sutter's arrival, Fort Ross could trade with Mexicans and the local Indians. Sutter forbade this - America would not trade with anyone involved with Fort Ross. The more things change the more they stay the same :)